Doctor's appt

[Margaret]

Hello everyone! I was on the treadmill today thinking about everyone and trying to picture your faces. I will take so much joy in all the hugs I get to give in Philly. I was also thinking about Russ's title "Great forum"...you know, it is a great forum. I am always reminding myself how lucky we are to have each other.

Okay....enough mushy stuff...on to the post.......

Boyce has a doctor's appt today with the urologist. Our oncologist seems to have this very black and white way to look at things. Either it is a threat to your life...or it is not. If it is not, he is a bit casual about it in my opinion. But heck, he deals with cancer all day, which can make a lot of things seem more black and white I guess.

Boyce's testosterone has been really low for a year now. He is having some issues with it, but the oncologist just kind of blows it off. He wants to do nothing. Very much like he treated the blood clots. I would like the urologist to address it and give his opinion.

We are also going to have the dreaded fertility talk. He assumed Boyce was sterile and could still be, but of course, we don't know for sure. But for the sake of family planning, it would be nice to know. If he is sterile, we move on...if he is not, we have choices to make. But I like having all the facts.

I will keep you posted as always.

M

[Les' Mom]

M...

Being a women I like the mushy stuff,,,, being a mom with lots on my plate and mind I like the mushy stuff... well I just like the mushy stuff.

I will think good thoughts for you and Boyce as he goes to the doctor.

Love,
pam

[MRMRSU]

My dearest Margaret...thinking of you and Boyce today. Hoping that you hear what your heart wants to hear.

Also, this is afterall the CAREGIVERS SPACE...mushy should never be in short supply here. We crave it, we need it, we always welcome it!

[Fed]

[...], but the oncologist just kind of blows it off. He wants to do nothing.

Hey Margaret,

T levels are probably not best addressed by an oncologist. You might have to deal with an endocrinologist instead. The specialization of medicine has gotten to a point that docs nowadays sometimes address only a very small portion of their discipline. Obviously he will need a hormone panel to address all of these concerns.

The fertility issue is a different matter, because this is dependent on sperm production and the viability of the produced specimens. This point is best addressed by a fertility doctor.

As far as the "mushy stuff" is concerned, it's what makes us more human . I appreciate having this space around because it emphasizes that cancer not only affects the patient, but also those around him. The love the caregivers show for your guys is very heartfelt, and it gives me (and I'm sure others) a respite from the nastiness of the beast.

[Margaret]

This is a great point Fed...and one I have never considered.

I am not sure if others feel this way but when you are treated for cancer by the same doctor for a year...it seems like you want them to address ALL your concerns. It just feel more comfortable.

I will let Boyce know about this other kind of doctor and see about getting a referral.

Our Urologist, a bit odd, was a fertility spec. which is why I thought maybe Boyce could speak to him about clearing this fertility issue up once and for all.

Thanks.

love love love

[Jay68442]

Hi Margaret,
I had a sperm analysis done through my wife's obgyn. Everyone thought I would be sterile after 6 rounds of chemo but that wasn't the case. Best to find out for sure rather than assume.

How long has its been since Boyce finished chemo? I was about 2 years out when my sperm counts returned to normal. Could have been a little sooner but that is when I was tested.

Good Luck to you and Boyce,
Jason

[Already Bald]

We are also going to have the dreaded fertility talk. He assumed Boyce was sterile and could still be, but of course, we don't know for sure. But for the sake of family planning, it would be nice to know. If he is sterile, we move on...if he is not, we have choices to make. But I like having all the facts.

Hey Boyce,
You're my age, right?
You better get some supplemental health insurance- I don't think Medicare will cover the delivery! LOL!

Just kidding, Margaret- I think it's great you are thinking of family planning.
(This is one of those times I'm glad my wife doesn't read these forums-or I would be going to the clinic with Boyce..)

[Margaret]

Back from the doctor: So Boyce is getting his testosterone checked today (blood draw) and he is going to the fertility clinic for a sperm check. So he should know more by next week.

Thanks so much for all the support and advice.

oxoxoxox

[Margaret]

Hey Boyce,
You're my age, right?
You better get some supplemental health insurance- I don't think Medicare will cover the delivery! LOL!

Just kidding, Margaret- I think it's great you are thinking of family planning.
(This is one of those times I'm glad my wife doesn't read these forums-or I would be going to the clinic with Boyce..)

You are funny Joe I could just pinch you!

I am torn honestly. I have come to terms with not having more children and not to mention neither one of us is getting any younger. Boyce is okay with just having Allen and I am dealing with the "but I always wanted and was supposed to have two kids" thing. Maybe I was only meant to have one.

I was sneaking around in the dark planting easter eggs when my 8 year old spotted me out his window. I tried to explain my way out it when he gave me the "look"...you know the 'look'...it is the moment where you realize that your child is smarter than you.

As he ran around in the yard with his pj's on, carrying the basket, squealing with delight every time he saw a new plastic egg...I felt the joy of being a parent (which I am grateful for) and the loss of knowing I get one chance to experience that. He will be 20 years old and I will still be tossing plastic eggs in the yard.

I am going to pray about it....see what the tests say...and let God guide me. I am sure the right path will become clear.

In the meantime, I get to tease Boyce about having to give a sample in a plastic cup....ahhhhh, the small joys in life!

[Jay68442]

In the meantime, I get to tease Boyce about having to give a sample in a plastic cup....ahhhhh, the small joys in life!

The memories return. Oh Joy!!
I have always made my wife hand the samples in. She is such a good sport when it comes to things like that.

[veryworriedmom]

Hi Margaret, dont let age be your guide, its how you feel. I was 38 with my last one and my mom had me when she was 45. Moms (and dads) get tired no matter what age they are with kids. Having a built in baby sitter with an older sibling can be a good thing! Marion

[Margaret]

No news yet on the testosterone but they did call back about the sperm count. Boyce took the sample in this morning and they call with in 30 min to say "there are no sperm in the sample". I was a bit stunned. I guess I was expecting them to say that it was a low count or low motility or maybe poor quality...I guess was not prepared for them to say there was nothing.

I have a call into them because I want to know if this is "it"...could they do another sample...is there a chance that a new sample could show something different? Or if they find nothing the first try, they offically say he is sterile?

I think that what hurts my heart the most is that I wanted to be the one to choose if I had another baby...I did not want cancer to steal my choices. Truth be told I think deep down I thought they would call and say that he did have sperm and maybe we would talk about trying to have a baby. I used to get excited about the idea. Now, I have no more baby day dreams. I think that it gave me something to hope about while Boyce was sick....took my mind off my fears of losing him.

It feels like a loss. There have been so many of these days since Boyce got cancer. But also joyful days as well so I should try not to cry. But I am crying and that stinks. Please don't think I am ungrateful because I know I have so much to be happy about and I know others are going through so much that I should not complain. So forgive me.

[Karen]

Oh, dear Margaert, there is nothing to forgive. Whatever the dream, there is always a mourning period when it's lost. Having a baby is so personal and emotional that having that option gone is hard.

[Already Bald]

But I am crying and that stinks. Please don't think I am ungrateful because I know I have so much to be happy about and I know others are going through so much that I should not complain. So forgive me.

Margaret- there is nothing to forgive. You have been through a whole lot- so let out a good cry to get it out of your system.
Your tears define you.

[TCLEFT]

Coming here to unload is what this forum is all about Blue Bird. It makes you human, and that is a very good and tender thing. I just heard this recently. I'm trying to cope with the fact that this #$%@ing disease has stolen some of my Son's childhood. The counsel I'm receiving from all of you seems to be unanimous though. The Love is stronger. The Love strong in you. That can only attract happiness somewhere down the road. Even if it wasn't the original road you started on.
Much Love,
Mark

[Scott]

It feels like a loss.

Of course it does, Margaret, and you sure don't need to beg forgiveness for that.

Two things:

1. "Whenever God closes a door, He always opens a window."
2. It can take two to three years for fertility to return after chemotherapy, so the door may not be closed.

[Les' Mom]

M.............. nothing to forgive. The knowledge that your family MAYBE complete has to be dishearting. But, you never never know when one of those boys will make it..... At least you can keep trying!

Love,
Pam

[Fish]

Margaret,

I'm sorry, you have so much love to give and it's unfair if you don't have the option of sharing that love with another child. Let's hope as Scott said, that the door is not closed permanently.

And you didn't say anything that requires forgiving.

[Jay68442]

Hi Margaret,
I’m sorry. I know the news you received is very disheartening. But as Scott pointed out it can take years for a man’s count to return after chemo. Never apologize for being upset about something. We all understand in one way or another what loss feels like. Cry, scream, jump up and down.. when feelings need to come out let them.

Jason

[Margaret]

I typed out 10 different things and erased them all. I really can't find the right words. And yes, Mark I am great at handing out the advice but I am not so good at taking it . Hard to be the one lying on the couch, ya know .

But I love you all and I need you all. I am grateful for this place and the people in it.

Prepare to be adopted...each and every one of you...by me!

[TCLEFT]

I typed out 10 different things and erased them all. I really can't find the right words. And yes, Mark I am great at handing out the advice but I am not so good at taking it . Hard to be the one lying on the couch, ya know .

But I love you all and I need you all. I am grateful for this place and the people in it.

Prepare to be adopted...each and every one of you...by me!

Hey Bluebird, me too on all counts.

[MRMRSU]

My dearest friend Margaret...I just love ya! I don't think child services will let you adopt me, but I'd make a good heck of a lil' sister A big Cali hug going out your way through your computer screen...it's a really big, long hug...still hugging.........................okay, I'll let you catch your breath now!

[boyce]

I know what happened!

The sperm count was low..but it's because it was a bad sample...

I'm giving a second sample next week....Hey Joe...will you and talk dirty to me so this one will be "better"?? Whatcha wearin' Big Guy?

Thanks to all of you for your ongoing support...this news is not unexpected, but M's clock is ticketty ticking, and I do understand.

Love you Honey!

[Margaret]

My dearest friend Margaret...I just love ya! I don't think child services will let you adopt me, but I'd make a good heck of a lil' sister A big Cali hug going out your way through your computer screen...it's a really big, long hug...still hugging.........................okay, I'll let you catch your breath now!

pretty Maria, I sure wish you could come to philly. I wish I could fly everyone out here so we could all finally meet.

As a mini-update:

The doctor called back. Again...no sperm in the sample (why do they keep saying that???-I get it, I am not stupid, just tearful)

But they would like him to come back on Wednesday for another fun run at it. Poor guy.

She did say one thing. Average men have about 20 million sperm per sample...Boyce had one. One little sperm that was dead, but they did find it, clinging to the side of the slide. Which I found somehow a bit cute. Hanging on for dear life or something.

We are both going in to talk to the urologist on Monday about his test. so if you are not sick of my many updates, I will let you know what we find out.

And just to think, I just bought condoms! UGH, and the expensive kind too! I guess you can't re-sell those things on e-bay?? Okay, my sense of humor is returning, slowly.............

love,

bb

[Margaret]

I know what happened!

The sperm count was low..but it's because it was a bad sample...

I'm giving a second sample next week....Hey Joe...will you and talk dirty to me so this one will be "better"?? Whatcha wearin' Big Guy?

Thanks to all of you for your ongoing support...this news is not unexpected, but M's clock is ticketty ticking, and I do understand.

Love you Honey!

I love you too. Damn you, I had just stopped crying.

[Jay68442]

Don't give up just yet Margaret. Good luck with the next sample. Not to sound disgusting but the fresher the better. I once produced a sample in the car just before entering the building. My wife and I laugh and shake our heads every time we think about it.

[NYC Russ]

As was explained to me in exceedingly creepy detail during my recent visits to the ol' sperm bank, there is a subset of men who, for several physical or psychological (!) reasons, are producing viable sperm but are not able to "express" them. He went into some story about the parasympathetic nervous system's relationship to the sympathetic, but I was caught in a rare moment of creeped-outedness and didn't really pay attention, so I'll poke around the Google and see if I can't find some more information.

And to get your spirits up in the meantime, a quick inter-post googling shows a lot of parasympathetic nervous system articles by "Dr. Wank". Now that's an appropriately named physician!

[Scott]

I once produced a sample in the car just before entering the building.

"I swear, officer, I'm headed right inside!"

These forums are exploring a lot of unusual territory lately.

[Already Bald]

I once produced a sample in the car just before entering the building.

Geez.
I hope it wasn't that rocken 442 that I was sitten in the other day .
Note to self: send pants to the dry cleaners!

[Mrs Moggi]

Oh, Margaret, I just saw your post. Fertility issues can be devastating under any circumstances. I can only imagine how exacerbated it must be as a consequence of TC.

I'll look forward to hearing about results on Wednesday and keep my fingers crossed that this gets to be YOUR decision!

Take care,

Jen

[Already Bald]

Wow,
You guys have no idea of the breakthrough my wife and I have just had..JUST NOW!

Here is the deal:

She loves that I connect on the forum with all of you- and she understands how this and LiveSTRONG have taken over a part of my life. And she is supportative on the times we have been able to meet. (At Mark's and Bill's).
And she is ok with the time I spend with you guys, and the time I will spend training- She lets me be me.

I love her to the end of the earth, and as much as I want her to be part of the forum, she is busy doing what I should be doing more of- raising our children and working for a living!

Tonight I asked her to PLEASE just read through this thread- I wanted her to read it because we've been upset by this very topic. We are not going to be albe to have any more children- and Majbritt totally understands the finality of that- and it's tough. It has been harder for her to accept than me.

Inwardly, for some time now I have wanted her to get to know you as I know you. Tonight we made major progress.

So, Majbritt sat down and started to read this thread. She knows so many of you by name because I talk about you so much.. It was really nice to go through this thread- thank you all, and especially you Margaret.

And then we came on this post:

....Hey Joe...will you and talk dirty to me so this one will be "better"?? Whatcha wearin' Big Guy?

Oh Lord! Too Funny!
I'll help you get through it Boyce- just like you know I will!
I'm wearing Bill's thongs- what else!

Thanks all- Love to you.
Such a good night .

[Jay68442]

Geez.
I hope it wasn't that rocken 442 that I was sitten in the other day .
Note to self: send pants to the dry cleaners!

Never in the 442. Well not by myself anyway.

[Margaret]

You all make me smile no matter what the day brings.

To Joe's sweet wife...(((waving to you))) I can't wait to meet you. This forum has healed my heart in so many ways.

Tonight would have been a great night for us all to meet for supper and a few cocktails. I would have enjoyed that!

love

[Fed]

Tonight would have been a great night for us all to meet for supper and a few cocktails.

I am very hopeful that such a day will come. I still remember speaking to you and Boyce at Mark's tatt party (yes Maria, they were drunk dialed too ). I bet such a gathering would certainly be memorable.

[dannysbrother]

Dearest Margaret and Boyce,

Quietly, I've followed this news and can't help thinking about the same thing over and over again. You both have such a beautiful bond and a beautiful family. I saw you keep each other going at Sloan and get EACH OTHER through the toughest of times, your son in the front of your minds the whole way.

The three of you are a force of strength and LOVE. Whatever the future of your family holds, I just want to say that your family now, today, is remarkable and a truly special bunch.

Thinking of you always.

LOVEstrong,
Mikey

[Russell's Mom]

Hi Margaret, There were a few low days for me....just read this post. Darn!! The last time we saw Dr. Meng, Russell's surgeon, we talked about the post surgical complications of the RPLND. Dr. Meng shared that they are using medication to temporarily reverse the nerve involvement, (must relax or strengthen somehow) and as well there are new techniques for "harvesting sperm" the existing sperm that have been produced, ready for travel, but face the detour!! Maybe there are some answers for you here!!?? Yesterday my oldest shared that he did a pretty big rescue up on Mt Hood. Kid over the edge. I'm picturing that little sperm on the edge, the one who made it, the leader of the pack, the pathfinder, worth searching for!!!! LiveSTRONG!! take care, Sharon

[Savin16]

Sweet Margaret,
I keep reading your thread, and I want to say something, except I don't know what.
I know you would like another child. And it just isn't fair. You have a wonderful husband who we all know adores you, as you do him. And you have been blessed with a son too. Keep the faith, you never know what can happen.

[Scott]

She lets me be me.

Now that's love, Joe!

[boyce]

Since Boyce posts under my handle once in a while, I figured (since he was already logged in) I would post under his name ...so this is Margaret

Tomorrow we see the doctor about the low testostrone numbers. Really interested to see what he has to say about that and about the "there is no sperm in the sample" news from the conception center. He is not only a urologist but he also is a spec. in fertility. So I am certain he will have lots of opinions to share.

My mother-in-law, Boyce's step mother so I don't feel too terrible about telling you that she can really be bitchy sometimes. This weekend, hearing about our "sample" she once again showed her colors. Saying to me that "that ship sailed for you long ago anyway Margaret". She mentioned my age (since when did being 34 mean you could not have a baby?) and she also brought up the first painful day when Boyce was having his testicle removed and they told us that more childern may be impossible. Like I was stupid or just not listening. Maybe she does not know how to carry hope in her heart...but I do. But I did not try and waste my engery trying to explain my hopes and dreams because in the end, I am sure they do not matter in her world.

But I am so glad that they matter here. And I am grateful.

[Les' Mom]

Well, this is my opinion BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH all over her.

[Savin16]

My dear Margaret,
You can tell your mother-in-law, that were not in the stone age anymore (with all due respect of course) woman now a days are not starting families til much later in life. Many woman are having their first in their late 30's, even at 40. I was 30 when I had my first and 35 with my 4th. They make me younger, even though I look older. LOL
Don't give up hope. See what the Dr has to say, and then move on from there. If in fact your not able to have anymore, then just be grateful, (as I know you are) that you have a wonderful hubby and a beautiful son, and move on from there. It still stinks that the possibility of choice was taken from you.
Best of luck, Big hug coming from me to you................................

[Russell's Mom]

Get me my viking hat!!!! Sometimes odd comments make me say to myself....wanna bet!!!!!!" There are so many amazing techniques and treatments developed every singe day now. My cards are on the good news!!!! Livestrong, Sharon

[Already Bald]

Such callous comments from your Mother-in-Law. Just weird that she would be negative like that. I wonder if she just doesn't know how to interact with people when they are down ?
I don't know- But I do know that if she is married to Boyce's father, she is not going away.. Try to ignore her when she is opinionated, and use that Southern squeking like a teapot charm of yours to tell her it's none of her damn business anyway!
Good luck tomorrow, I'm pulling for you.
(But I'm not pulling for Boyce! )

[boyce]

Cmon Joe....a little tug or SOMEthing!

Sheesh.....I'm all aLONE over here!!!

[Margaret]

Cmon Joe....a little tug or SOMEthing!

Sheesh.....I'm all aLONE over here!!!

that is just wrong on so many levels!

[Margaret]

Back from the doctor...again...anyone sick of this post yet??

Anyway, we got Boyce's testosterone numbers...241...apparently 240 and below is below normal so as the doctor put it "we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel". ALL his numbers were in fact "very poor" and at times the doctor referred to his counts as "horrible". He said the sperm test was that of a man who had a vasectomy. It was 'that' bad.

He thinks his testosterone numbers will continue to drop and they have ordered further testing. They will most likely put him on gel soon. Next appt is the 14th.

He asked us to cancel the follow up appt. with the conception center because it is "a complete waste of time and money, for all medical purposes you are physically sterile". So no more need for Joe to flirt with Boyce .

He also told me to call my OB/GYN and remove me from the family planning route since I will no longer have any need for birth control in the future. Why don't I feel happier about that????

Boyce hates the expression "it is what it is"....but that is about the only way to sum it up.

The only positive thing about the appt was that the doctor called me 'young' once. Gotta cling to what ever you can, right?

Love you guys.

[NYC Russ]

Dang, sounds like the doc could have paid a little more attention in Tact class. Do they all practice giving bad news in the worst way possible or is it just coincidence?

Seeing as how you guys made it this far in one piece, I'm sure this latest bump in the road won't be the one to stop you!

[veryworriedmom]

Didnt he said 241, and 240 is below normal,? hang on to that "1" in hope because one is all you need to make a baby. Dont you believe in miracles? Love Marion

[Margaret]

I have sadly been hanging onto my miracle for 18 months now, and I never gave up until I looked at the whites of the doctor's eyes today....and he made it very clear that there was no chance for us. Boyce said he gave up 18 months ago and he was surprised I hung on for as long as I did.

[Les' Mom]

M...... sorry about the little swimmers demise. Wanna get a job with me in the NICU rocking premies????


Love,
pam